Sky Broadband and MER - a tale - Fellowship of the MER

[1topgazza]

So I wanted to install a mesh system in my house. The BT WHole Home, white discs, worked and did a pretty good job. But one developed a fault so I thought I would upgrade to WIFi 6 which my phones and iPads can utilise. Installed an Orbi and it was fantastic. Worked great for a couple of months then there was a firmware update on the Orbi and I started to get drop outs that required a reboot of the Orbi router. Then another update mad eit worse and every 24 hours when the IP lease ran out it would die until rebooted. Why it got worse and wasnt there from the beginning I dont know. Anyway......

So my WiFi of the SR203 is OK, just. I can live with it for now but finding a mest, other than non WIFi 6 BT whole home, seems hopeless. Even TP Link whos VR modem/routers do have the MER option dont appear to do a compatible mesh system although I did read one guy who said his Deco X20 DOES have this in the settings. I've asked TP Link but they gave a vague babbling response that didnt address the question. I would appreciate anyones help with the following to test my sanity

1. I could simply switch to Plusnet and move on from there with a mesh of my choice

2. Get a TP Link VR2800 but even though that uses MER the mesh would have the same issue I assume

3. Put the mesh router  into AP mode, turn off SKY WiFI of course and that, in theory should work

4. Get Sky Boost but to me that is not a solution that I want at £5 a month. Typical Sky tying you into paying extra for a basic need. Either good WiFi or just the freedom of choice. 

5. Use carrier pigeons

Why dont Sky use PPPoE like they do at Sky Ireland ? What a pain

[Mr+Slant]

Sky use IPoE (they don't, and never have used "MER") because in just about every way it is technically superior to PPPoE. They made a poor historical decision to use DHCP Option 61 on IPoE which was understandable at the time but in retrospect has become a PITA. They've tried to work around this now by using a connection method where the client requests an IPv6 PD but that's still fairly hit and miss.

Everyone else (bar Virgin) uses PPPoE because of BT Wholesale. PPPoE is junk in just about every way imaginable (including eating cpu resources like you wouldn't believe!) but it does allow for "domain" authentication which is what BT Wholesale relies upon.

tl;dr IPoE > PPoE; DHCP Option 61 was a mistake.

[1topgazza]

Thats interesting.

Why do those devices that have the option show Sky_MER(option 61) ? Happy to be educated but I've never heard anyone mention they don't "use" MER. But at the end of the day its a moot point I guess. It's still, in practice a proprietry system as they are the only people who use it. Except in Ireland which is weird. I would still love a solution be it all a compromise other than ditch Sky as I am otherwise very happy with the service.

Thing is PPPoE works regardless of any CPU usage or other issues. I dont think it is really a bad thing and hardly effect performance of the broadband. But in any case I appreciate the advice, knowledge is king.  From now on I'll refer to it as IPoE and option 61 and not MER.  So that is very much appreciated

what I don't understand is why Sky went out on their own in the UK. It's not as though the restrictive element for the user is of any real benefit for the user, maybe them for CPU usage as you said. 

[Skull+Treaty]

@1topgazza 

Some of the TP-Link modem routers are 'OneMesh' compatible with their plug-in 'mesh solutions' 

[Mr+Slant]

I've no idea why people called it "MER". Ignorance probably?

MER = MAC encapsulated routing which isn't DHCP Option 61, nor do Sky use the MAC address of the router to authenticate.

PPPoE is fine for low speed connections (under 100Mbps). Above that it becomes a serious issue as most (open source) implementations aren't capable of using more than one core on a cpu. This means that as soon as you introduce any sort of significant firewall rules/IDS/QoS then you don't get near line rate unless you use a stupidly powerful cpu, which in turn costs more and eats a lot more power than it would using IPoE. There are implementations of PPPoE which do use multicore cpus efficiently but in general they are proprietary and require licensing fees which mass market ISPs aren't going to pay for.

In addition PPPoE simply isn't capable of multicast over xDSL/FTTP services provided by BT Wholesale in the UK unless you have local servers at the exchange level. Multicast is a pretty important thing if you're planning to provide IPTV services in an efficient manner, which is why Sky chose IPoE in the first place (getting people off satellite TV and onto IPTV has been their "holy grail" for 15 years+).

[1topgazza]

Ah, I see the issue. Maybe a gamble that hasn't paid off. Once you throw BT/Openreach in the mix all sensible bets are off.

You  mention the Tp link one mesh and I'll do some research but do I assume that regardless of the Tp link modem authentication, option 61 in this case, their  mesh will work without having to worry about that ? As I say I'll also do some digging but manufacturers are not often forth coming on the Sky issue as, I suspect, they are US centric. Interestingly the Eero website actually gives a detailed but simple guide to set up their mesh as a AP when using a Sky router. But then they are a UK only company so "get" the issue and clearly  recognise the UK market and Sky's position. In your opinion is running a mesh as an AP any worse in performance than as a router ? It's a possible option as I don't need some of the features I would lose. I just want good range and throughput. Compared to what get now

But again, thank you for the more than useful help. 

[Mr+Slant]

You can only use IPoE if you have your own backhaul from "exchanges".

If an ISP relies on BT Wholesale to deliver traffic to them from clients then IPoE isn't an option. This isn't due to any incompetence/whatever with BT Wholesale - its simply not technically possible to do while segregating traffic between ISPs given the current infrastructure.

Mesh systems are proprietary so I can't help you there in terms of what you are asking. I wouldn't go anywhere near anything owned by Amazon personally. In general a wireless mesh system does not route any traffic, it simply connects one wireless node to the most appropriate other wireless node in the mesh. Some do it better than others and you definitely get what you pay for in that market segment.

[Skull+Treaty]

@1topgazza 

Back when I was with Sky, I swapped out the Q Hub for a TP-Link VR2100 and added the OneMesh RE300 device. Worked a treat, set-up via the app (tether), as the IPoE authentication is done on the VR2100 there was nothing to change/add to the RE300. If I remember correctly there are a few OneMesh devices. 

[1topgazza]

Agree with Amazon comment. I just came across it on a "what works with Sky" type search. But all they did was being helpful by detailing a fairly basic AP solution.The product itself, the Eero 6+ version gets good reviews,,,,but it's still Amazon 😳

Having used the Orbi which really was excellent apart from the authentication issue I definitely agree about buying a " get what you pay for" product. As in higher end. I only get 50Mbs at the moment so something like the Asus XT8 is not needed so the TP Link VR2100 or VR2800 tied with something like the Deco X50 mesh would be ideal. But looking at one Mesh and using one mesh Range extenders with a one Mesh router/modem possibly looks a good solution for me. I can try it and see if it works.
To be fair I get a WiFi signal in the 3rd floor loft conversion from the SR 203 but it's patchy and slow. I don't have any heavy brick walls.
Hence the upgrade though as I would like to improve it. If I had no service I would be frustrated. So this is an interesting project for me. Trooly are proposing a FTTP service on my estate some time soon so that's promising as I don't really want to tie myself for 2 years with someone like Plusnet. Especially as the basic service from Sky is good. I don't need 1 Gb but faster than 50 would be welcome

[Mr+Slant · Accepted solution]

You may not need mesh if you site an AP correctly.

I have one of these mounted on the ceiling at the top of the stairs in a 4 bed detached house with single leaf block walls upstairs :

https://www.tp-link.com/uk/business-networking/ceiling-mount-ap/eap660-hd/

It'll do 300-600Mbps on a 2x2 client (900Mbps on a 3x3) most anywhere in the house except the integral garage where the 5GHz signal won't get to (double-leave block walls) so its 2.4GHz and around 30-50Mbps which is fine. It covers the garden too - about 40-80Mbps at the end of the rear (30m), maybe 20Mbps at the front.

[1topgazza]

As a contract project manager I put a few of similar products in the MoJ in London about 5 years ago. Now, these were 4G APs by EE as the building was made of steel and was effectively a faraday cage. Mobile signals were poor of course. The APs fed by a 4G server were excellent. Had an issue with handover form one cell to another but that has been fixed.  

One AP would do my house perfectly for WiFi. Installation fo cables is an issue however. But when we move next year thats what Ill go for I think. Thats a great product

[Mr+Slant]

In order to get roaming working properly you need four basics :

1) 802.11k

2) 802.11r

3) 802.11v

4) Professional tools like https://www.metageek.com/enterprise-wi-fi/

I've installed hundreds of APs in commercial environments over the years & sorted out dozens of clueless cowboy installs - many of them from well known "contractors" (considered as being idiots in the IT world) who do work for the MoD/govt.

You pay for what you get & if you're paying less than a grand a day for survey/design wireless work these days then you ARE getting cowboys 🙂

[1topgazza]

I agree

Most of the IT staff at the MoJ in Petty France were contractors but some had been there 10 years ! Go figure. And some of those were well and truly embedded in the Government culture. But I did 6 month and 1 year stints on my contracts to stay fresh. But the MoJ had a number of IT projects that I would look at open mouthed at the waste, the lack of technical knowhow and delays that meant the delivered solution was already out of date. I could go on.....

[Mr+Slant]

Oh I don't mean individual contractors (who are normally pretty good), I mean companies like Serco and Crapita 😉 The whole business of govt contractors is one of total ineptitude.

I used to be PDSO (post design services officer) on Rapier (missile system) when I worked for Racal (blast from the past there) and basically the MoD did what I told them to do without any quibbling other than timescales for payment. At the age of 26 I effectively controlled a budget of around £75m/year over two projects - had to get MoD to sign off on spending every few months but they had no clue what I was on about anyway. Things are a LOT worse now.

Eventually got fed up of endless meetings and design work taking in some cases over a decade & left for the commercial IT design world. Didn't look back unless it was to laugh.

[1topgazza]

You had to go mention CRAPITA didn't you 😭

Truly the most awful, incompetent company ever and I've worked at Serco as well, again as a contractor. I actually sent CRAPITA to the wrong site for meetings on a few occasions or gave them wrong times. Things went better and the MoJ guys actually thanked me.

As for Racal, I used to be a service engineer for Rank Xerox late 70s to mid 80s and Racal were one of my dedicated sites in Bracknell and Reading. Those were the days when things were more fun then