Using 3rd Party Router

[Chrisee]

@CyberFriday thst post refers to FTTP connections where an adapted SR203 is connected to a ONT. FTTC and G.fast connections using a copper phone line and a moddm definitely need the Option 61 log in. 

[CyberFriday]

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@Chrisee wrote:

@CyberFriday thst post refers to FTTP connections where an adapted SR203 is connected to a ONT. FTTC and G.fast connections using a copper phone line and a moddm definitely need the Option 61 log in. 

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@Chrisee  Missed the subtlety of FTTP. For those of us where FTTP isn't an option when we see "fibre broadband" mentioned without FTTP then the default is FTTC. 

Why do you say FTTC and G.FAST on copper "definitely" need option 61 is that because it doesn't natively support IPV6 or for some other reason ? And is that an edit that  @-rpnz- should make to his post to ensure it covers all the bases ?

https://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Broadband/Third-party-router-with-FTTP/td-p/3541862/page/2

[Chrisee]

@CyberFriday Sky do not support third party routers so the knowledge we have is built up from experience however to get any modem/router combination to connect to a service over copper you need the authentication step - its just the way Sky have set things up some of which will predate the introduction of IP6. 

Sky UK's choice of Option 61 (MER) rather than PPOE catches a lot of people out as while some routers like Netgear and TP-Link support Sky's VDSL service out of the box others like Asus units need different firmware. Multiple systems however wont connect as they lack the vital Option61 support these include Google Wifi, Netgear's Orbi etc. 

Just to total confuse everyone Sky Ireland use PPOE so it is important to know which system is being discussed in the thread if you use search. 

[CyberFriday]

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@Chrisee wrote:

@CyberFriday Sky do not support third party routers so the knowledge we have is built up from experience however to get any modem/router combination to connect to a service over copper you need the authentication step - its just the way Sky have set things up some of which will predate the introduction of IP6. 

Sky UK's choice of Option 61 (MER) rather than PPOE catches a lot of people out as while some routers like Netgear and TP-Link support Sky's VDSL service out of the box others like Asus units need different firmware. Multiple systems however wont connect as they lack the vital Option61 support these include Google Wifi, Netgear's Orbi etc. 

Just to total confuse everyone Sky Ireland use PPOE so it is important to know which system is being discussed in the thread if you use search. 

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@Chrisee  Fully aware of Sky's policy on not supporting non Sky routers.  And, it's thanks to that approach that I first became aware of the lovely sound drop out issues  as i had to switch back from my Draytek 2860 to the "lovely" sky q hub before opening a support call for  something else. Although I was pleasantly surprised to see Sky stepping into the thread i linked to in  post 17 on this thread. And post that i was able to remove my option 61 credentials and must be on the 80% of the network nativley supporting authentication on IPV6.  And i have FTTC on copper so i don't "definitely" need option 61 as you mention in your post 16. This was where i was confused as that wasn't the message that @-rpnz-  was giving (you only need it if you are on the 20% of the network not supporting IPV6). I know it is complicated topic, particularly when you consider the range of technical expertise across the sky customer base. So, can i ask @-rpnz-  to consider pinning an article based on their earlier post This will help clarify the situation in a single authoritative source. 
 

[Chrisee]

@CyberFriday genuinly surprised you have been able to authenticate a FTTC connection without using Option 61. Never heard of that before and it is a useful data point especially as potentially it opens up a range of choices of equipment that does not support that option. However it is a gamble as I know of no way to no which exchanges fully support IP6 andcwhich don't. 

I will be surprised if Sky post an article as up until now they have refused even simple requests like posting the log in string but hopefully you can prove me wrong - again. As I undestand it it is not a technical decision but a marketing one.

[-rpnz-]

Sorry I can't pin posts, as I'm not a forum admin.

Let me try to summarise a few key points where there seems to be confusion:

• Authentication is based on information inserted by the network (Openreach DSLAM/OLTs), not what information is put in to DHCPv4 Option 61 by the client.
• Approx 80% of Openreach's total GEA footprint, that's both FTTC and FTTP, should now support Leightweight DHCPv6 Relay Agent (LDRA), that we need to natively authenticate DHCPv6.
• I believe it's 100% of FTTP services, as well as G.Fast.
• If your CPE router is correctly configured for DHCPv6 PD and can obtain a lease, then DHCPv4 will work following that, without the need for DHCPv4 Option 61 Client-ID.
• DHCPv4 Option 61 "Client-ID" will be needed for the other 20% of customers on older Openreach equipment.
• There is no "login" ID or password required, but the contents of DHCPv4 Option 61 used by the Sky Hub look like those previously used as PPP CHAP username/passwords from back in the day.
• The requirement for DHCPv4 Option 61 is a technical one, not marketing, and is for legacy reasons.  The only reason it is still required (for those 20%) these days is because there's no dedicated WAN port on the Sky Hubs, and we need to be sure the DHCPv4 Discover message is coming from the Sky Hub, not a device on your LAN.
• DHCPv4 Option 61 is called "Client-ID", and is nothing to do with "MER".   "MER" could also be called IPoEoA and  Sky uses simply IPoE.  There's no ATM involved with VDSL2 or GPON.
• Yes sadly the Sky Hub itself even misuses the term "MER", and other 3rd parties have now followed. 😞

Hope that helps clear things up!  Happy to answer any additional questions.

[mae-3]

@-rpnz- 

RFC 1994 for PPP CHAP then and the password needs to be at least an octet (8 characters) but it can be anything is that correct?

My understanding is then that the size of the fields is important, eg: any size field size followed by the @ hostname a pipe | and then at least an octet for the password and that's about it in hexadecimal because its a hash?

[-rpnz-]

I wouldn't worry about what the CHAP RFC says, PPP is only used on the ADSL2+ product, and the CHAP username/password is only there because it has to be, we don't actually look at the content of it these days.

The things looking at DHCPv4 Option 61 Client-ID, are not validating the content against the PPP CHAP RFC.  It's just that, back in the day, Sky chose to use the same content for this option, as it was already generated within the Sky Hub, and useful to have in there for reasons that no longer matter.

The content and length of the DHCPv4 Option 61 don't matter, as long as there's something present followed by a pipe '|' symbol, as there's regex matching on that. I don't believe the regex is matching anything after the pipe.

On our side it's stored as string, but indeed some DHCPv4 clients you may be using in 3rd party routers, expect you to provide it to them in configuration files, as hex.

[mae-3]

@-rpnz- 

Thank you that is very informative and clears it up for me, it's usually then the routers that have validation on them that causes an issue in some cases!

Excellent customer service. 😀

[Skull+Treaty]

This is getting bookmarked ; )

[CyberFriday]

@-rpnz-  Thanks for the update. And i am still enjoying option 61 free connection to my Sky FTTC broadband following your previous post on this topic. And I know there is history of Sky not supporting 3rd party routers and other providers are the same. But, there is always hope that someone will take the lead in the market in better supporting customers in this position. It is 2021 and not 1984 😉  And, the requirement for Sky customers to use a 3rd party solution isn't going away. Is there a process or someone we can ask to get your post pinned in order to give it greater visibility. Small steps..

[Just+another+user]

@-rpnz-just for future reference, an "octet" is eight bits, not eight bytes. The term was used in telecoms before there was standardisation on the 8-bit byte as a character unit, when other character lengths (also often referred to in those days as "bytes") were acceptable. 

[mae-3]

@Just+another+user 

Octet just means 8 of something, and it was specified as 8 characters. 😉

[DarrylUK]

Thanks for all of the information. I have an Openreach ONT and was looking to just get rid of the Sky router and switch to a TP Link AX50. 

In the IPv6 I can't really tell what settings I should be selecting based on the information you've given. Under type I have the option for "Dynamic IP (SLAAC/DHCPv6)", "PPPoE", "6to4 Tunnel". 

I've tried DHCPv6 with PD on, "Get IPv6" to DHCPv6 as well as SLAAC and Auto. 

 No combination of settings I use seems to be able to connect. Do you have any idea?

[TastyLight]

I'm in the same boat. Any help here would be great! Did you find a solution? I just bought the Archer AX73.