topic Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP? in Archive

Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

THX1138 — Sat, 16 Oct 2021 08:29:26 GMT

Hello All

There has been a question in the back of my mind for some time regards to the final days of copper lines to premises that is approaching.

Once we all move over to FTTP, how will multiple phone lines into a premises be handled?

For example:

Today, if a premises has 3 separate copper phone lines entering a building, each one has its own separate nte5 master socket.

Go forward to FTTP only. What will happen in the future when only FTTP is available, based on that same building needing 3 separate phone lines?

Will it require:

3 separate fibre cables running into the building, each with their own separate ONT for each of the 3 fibre cables?
1 fibre cable with 3 separate ONTs?
1 fibre cable and 1 ONT

For (B) the question is to whether a fibre cable to a premises can multiplex multiple phone lines over a single fibre cable coming into the building

For (C) the question is to whether a single ONT is designed to facilitate multiple lines into a building. Or maybe there are special ONTs that can do this?

For me personally I will need to retain 3 separate phone lines into my home and am curious to know whether I will end up with a wall full of ONTs inside my living room.

Many thanks in advance

Cheers

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

TimmyBGood — Sat, 16 Oct 2021 12:42:59 GMT

@THX1138

Even a 150Mbs FTTP service can host a huge number of simultaneous VOIP connections: any single 'call' is only using a few hundred kbps of data. The slightly trickier bit is that the typical FTTP telephony provided by an ISP themselves only has one 'number' and uses the single phone handset socket on their router. To have more numbers at an address (there are no 'lines' any more) the subscriber needs to source their own VOIP solution which lives either behind the router or 'in the cloud': this could be entirely virtual, based on dedicated PBX hardware, or on individual IP handsets. There's certainly no need for multiple ONTs, and although older hardware models do have one or more Voice sockets, these aren't being used by any current telephony deployment and you won't find them on newer versions.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

THX1138 — Sat, 16 Oct 2021 16:16:52 GMT

Hi @TimmyBGood many thanks for your reply.

I must admit that I’m struggling a bit to visualise how this would pan out.

If I take the scenario below:

Livingroom must have its own telephone and internet connection for ‘Personal’ use and have its own unique telephone number and separate internet account
Bedroom 2 must have its own telephone and internet connection for ‘Business’ use and have its own unique telephone number and separate internet account
Alarm system must have its own unique telephone number

How would Sky sell and physically facilitate the scenario above once all the copper lines are gone and everything is done via FTTP?

Currently with Copper to the property it’s easy to do as you would simply have 3 separate accounts with Sky, coming into the property via 3 separate physical lines, with 3 individual phone numbers.

Sorry if I’m being a bit thick…

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

THX1138 — Sat, 16 Oct 2021 16:38:13 GMT

Sorry @TimmyBGood

To make it a bit more complicated could a single fibre cable be used by 2 different telephone/internet providers at the same time?

If I take the scenario below again:

BT FTTP – providing Livingroom telephone and internet connection for ‘Personal’ use and have its own unique telephone number and separate BT account
Sky FTTP – providing Bedroom 2 telephone and internet connection for ‘Business’ use and have its own unique telephone number and separate Sky account
Sky FTTP – providing Alarm system must have its own unique telephone number

Cheers for your help and patience.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

TimmyBGood — Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:43:04 GMT

@THX1138

You're overthinking it. In the next few years all telephony will become just data, like web traffic is now: your ISP is the provider of a data conduit. The individual phones don't have an ISP: they are just the endpoint devices for data tagged to arrive at a particular destination which has been associated with a 'phone number': this could be an IP handset (wired or WiFi) or a computer or an app on a smartphone.

It's worth noting that analogue monitored alarm systems no longer function in this brave new world: you should seek advice from your specialist provider about a replacement.

A single FTTP connection only has one ISP (like any other broadband) but 'phone numbers' are intended to be portable between providers. For multiple numbers at an address you'd be using a call provider, not the ISP.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

THX1138 — Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:51:46 GMT

@TimmyBGood You are a star !

Finally I get it - sorry for being slow... It will be like Skype calls today, where they can have a phone number.

I do overthink at times.

Cheers mate

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

simon194 — Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:12:29 GMT

@THX1138 wrote:
Hi @TimmyBGood many thanks for your reply.

I must admit that I’m struggling a bit to visualise how this would pan out.

If I take the scenario below:

Livingroom must have its own telephone and internet connection for ‘Personal’ use and have its own unique telephone number and separate internet account
Bedroom 2 must have its own telephone and internet connection for ‘Business’ use and have its own unique telephone number and separate internet account
Alarm system must have its own unique telephone number
How would Sky sell and physically facilitate the scenario above once all the copper lines are gone and everything is done via FTTP?

Currently with Copper to the property it’s easy to do as you would simply have 3 separate accounts with Sky, coming into the property via 3 separate physical lines, with 3 individual phone numbers.

Sorry if I’m being a bit thick…

I think the easiest solution would be to move your telephony to a VoIP provider.

At home I use a Siemens Gigaset N300A with 4 handsets which supports a fixed line and up to 3 VoIP connections. Currently the "fixed line" connects to Sky's VoIP service and I have two separate numbers from Sipgate for my home office and the rest of the house.

Before anyone says "why have Sky Talk and Sipgate", it's because I don't make enough personal calls during the day to warrant paying the extra for more than the Evening and Weekend talk package.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

THX1138 — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:55:45 GMT

One more checking question, if I may. @simon194 @TimmyBGood

Imagine we are now in the future and all copper lines to the house are gone – only fibre lines.

If I already have Sky Ultra FTTP for my personal internet and VoIP
My employer then provides me with a BT Full Fibre FTTP for business internet and VoIP only (maybe because they get a good corporate discount through BT)

Would my home then need to have 2 physical fibre cables coming into it? One for Sky FTTP and one for BT FTTP? This could also be the case if I just need two completely independent internet services from different providers.

I appreciate that all of this is still some 3-4 years away for most of us, but boy does time fly, and before we know it…

Cheers All

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

TimmyBGood — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:23:19 GMT

@THX1138 wrote:

Would my home then need to have 2 physical fibre cables coming into it? One for Sky FTTP and one for BT FTTP? This could also be the case if I just need two completely independent internet services from different providers.

You would need two separate cores of fibre fused to two pigtails reaching two ONTs feeding two routers (or conceivably a business-grade router with twin WAN ethernet ports). However, standard optical drop-cable to an individual property is typically four-core, so there's spare capacity in that already.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

jamesn123 — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:22:27 GMT

Its similar to how ISPs do it for multi tenant office spaces currently. My companies office building has 5 different companies in it, there is one fibre drop wire coming in from outside which is split off into 6 fibre wires that feed each company. We all can purchase up to 1Gbps.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

TimmyBGood — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:29:36 GMT

@jamesn123 wrote:

My companies office building has 5 different companies in it, there is one fibre drop wire coming in from outside which is split off into 6 fibre wires that feed each company.

We're currently in dispute with a leased-line provider over their attempts to charge us a hefty amount for many hundreds of metres of 'new' connection from the local DP, when all Openreach did was fusion-splice a pigtail onto a spare strand in the multi-core optical cable they put in several years ago...

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

THX1138 — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:30:33 GMT

@jamesn123 @TimmyBGood

This is now getting into the detail I was hoping for. Thanks both.

So, the illustration below, should be how it can be in the future for the homeowner wanting more than one Internet Provider.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

TimmyBGood — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:38:35 GMT

@THX1138

Alternatively, according to ISPreview, Openreach may have access to an ONT for that purpose.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/01/a-look-at-openreachs-future-4-port-ont-for-fttp-broadband.html

It's worth noting that the mechanics of actually ordering a second FTTP service at an address are probably not well established, and would be subject to any particular ISP understanding what you are trying to achieve...

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

jamesn123 — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:38:22 GMT

Yeah it should end up being one fibre wire with multiport ONTs that authenticate with different providers or accounts with the same provider

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

jamesn123 — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:46:13 GMT

@TimmyBGood wrote:

@jamesn123 wrote:

My companies office building has 5 different companies in it, there is one fibre drop wire coming in from outside which is split off into 6 fibre wires that feed each company.

We're currently in dispute with a leased-line provider over their attempts to charge us a hefty amount for many hundreds of metres of 'new' connection from the local DP, when all Openreach did was fusion-splice a pigtail onto a spare strand in the multi-core optical cable they put in several years ago...

Yeah when we ordered our service the provider was talking about all the required work and saying it would go well above the 'free' 4k grant to FTTP build work. Then they realised cable was already coming in and it would just need running to our office. I bet they still claimed the 4k from the government though.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

THX1138 — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:32:14 GMT

Many thanks @jamesn123 @TimmyBGood

Very intertesting these new Multiport ONTs.

This will be exaclty what I end up needing once the big copper switch-off happens. Being able to authenticate with different providers or accounts with the same provider will be perfect! (and I assume each account will have its own External IP address presence?)

Great chat both and many thanks again.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

DaveWPA — Thu, 04 Nov 2021 19:47:45 GMT

Hi,

I'm not sure whether this is the right place to ask but i have a query regarding a potential upgrade to Sky's Ultrafast FTTP product.

I have a house whereby my parents live in the main house and i live in an annex. I have a Sky Talk, TV and broadband service; my parents have their own separate telephone service with BT. The telephone pole is right outside the house on the opposite side of the street but with only 1 x cable that comes to the house. There is then a little black plastic casing when it meets the house and then our two separate telephone lines come out of that and go their separate way to each respective master socket.

If I upgrade to Sky Ultrafast FTTP, I presume the cable from the telephone pole to the house is replaced with fibre optic. If this is so, what happens to my parents, who have their telephone with BT which runs on the copper line? We seem to share the same line between house and pole?

If that cable gets replaced with fibre optic will their BT line still function ok?

This may be a stupid question so apologies if so, but although quite tech savvy i don't know the workings of phone systems. If I upgrade I do not want to cause an issue with their own personal line?

Any ideas?

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

jamesn123 — Thu, 04 Nov 2021 22:41:44 GMT

@DaveWPA

There is currently work going on to allow different ISPs to work through multiple ports on a fibre ONT but that hasnt been released yet so for the moment you'd probably need to have two fibre lines pulled down from the pole to have two different ISPs serve you. As for the phones, its all voip now so each of you would have your phone services via the router with a unique number.

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

DaveWPA — Thu, 04 Nov 2021 23:00:31 GMT

Thanks for the response. So if I go ahead and order Sky Ultrafast, is my imminent ordering of FTTP going to affect my parents? You mention the likelihood of two fibre lines but they have no need for it. Would Openreach be aware that there are two separate telephone lines using the current copper cable coming from the pole to the house? Would the copper wire not remain for them, but one fibre line would installed for me?

Re: Multiple Phone Lines into a building using FTTP?

jamesn123 — Thu, 04 Nov 2021 23:17:46 GMT

@DaveWPA

The copper line indeed would remain and a new fibre wire would be pulled down. Openreach should certainly have record of the two different circuits in use but its worth checking with BT that their service will continue once you order FTTP. In the future your parents will likely be forced onto FTTP anyway due to the PSTN switchoff in 2025.